Optus and Starlink take on Telstra, ACCC cracks down on data brokers: Vertical Hold Ep 437

Adam Turner 

So I’m sure you’d love to chat about the latest in supply chain. But I’m also keen to know why the a triple C is worried about dodgy data brokers maybe start off by telling us what is the data break.

Chandni Gupta 

So data brokers are basically like a modern day Alchemist of the data world. They’re mining and refining various bits of our personal information. And then they’re sharing and selling it on to businesses who can then use it to refine their targeting strategies, which can be anything from personalising what products you’re offered at what price or whether you’re even excluded from particular products offers, there’s really very little to no transparency and how personal information is collected, and shared and used. And we also don’t know really how offline or offline data is merged with our online data. And often all of this is happening without us even knowing. So it’s really great to see a triple C really looking into this and probing a little bit more, what we’ve seen with them is that they have previously looked into businesses that collect, share, and use data of their own customers. But this is that next step, because this is where a data is being used. It’s being collected by a third party, hence the data broker in so many ways. And so it’s really great that they’re looking into it, and they’re really going to probe because there hasn’t been a lot of probing into this particular market in the data space. The whole thing

Adam Turner 

sounds pretty kind of dodgy, to be honest. Why, what role do they play in the ecosystem? Like, why do we need them? And how, how do they get my data?

Chandni Gupta 

Yes, why do we need them? I don’t actually know if we actually need them. So there are some who claim that data brokers can help businesses with identifying or protect preventing fraud. But if a business is using just a data broker to do that, I mean, they’ve got bigger problems, really what you want. What we’re seeing at the moment is that data data brokers are really facilitating a way to curate a personal profile on people and really curating what an online, what the online pieces look like for someone. And they’re doing it in ways in so many ways. And they’re collecting it through how you browse online. When you’re using social media when you’re shopping online. Though, even when you’re using those lovely loyalty cards, they’re collecting all of that information through all of those means, and then putting it together in a way to create that really unique profile about you. In fact, it’s basic, and many businesses that we interact with on a day to day basis will have some form of data sharing arrangement with these services. So it’s a happening a lot more than what we can possibly imagine.

Adam Turner 

So part of the problem is that you sign up with a retailer or a service provider that you trust. And you say, Okay, I trust them. I’ll give them my name, my date of birth, I’ll let them know what I’m interested in. I’ll give them my mobile number. But What you don’t realise is they’re actually sharing slash on selling that to someone else who was then collating that and then selling it to someone else again, and then you wonder why all these other people are contacting?

Chandni Gupta 

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. There’s what we’re really seeing with the way this operates is there’s a definite mismatch between what Australians expect and what is actually currently happening to their data. So our research recently looked at what the consumer what Australians are thinking about when it comes to privacy and their and their data. And we found 74% of Australians are just not comfortable with companies sharing or selling their personal information. And less than 10% of Australians are comfortable with the way targeted advertising, that’s based on tracking our online behaviour and our personal characteristics. They’re just not comfortable with that at all. So you’ve got this real mismatch with what people expect businesses to be doing with their data, when they’re trusting them, to what is actually happening in reality. And it means that often all of this is actually really hidden in those wonderful terms and conditions, which we all love to read. And they just, they don’t go that next next step to see and they shouldn’t be expected to be reading 90,000 word terms and conditions, every time you sign up to a loyalty card, there should be a set level of trust that you this is some this is a business I trust. And I know that they will do right by me. But what is happening is, is quite different to what’s expected.

Adam Turner 

So are there laws about in Australia about what they can do, how they can access data, what they can share.

Chandni Gupta 

So there are actually laws. In fact, within the privacy principles, there’s even a specific principle that says that you cannot collect information about an individual if it’s not directly from the individual. But there are businesses, obviously, who are very much playing within this space, whether they’re collecting it via the Data Broker, and then you’ve got data brokers who are collecting it through various means anything from screen scraping to monitoring and tracking our behaviour online. And so there are laws, but they don’t go quite far enough. We also, as you know, the Privacy Act is very much in the 80s. At the moment, it is getting a review. And with that, that’s going to absolutely help I mean other other, there are other countries who are real, who are have more strengthen laws in privacy, still not quite to perhaps what we need in terms of the data breaking space, but there are laws there. And strengthening those privacy protections, especially a lot of the recommendations that were made by the Attorney General. In back in March, it will really help kind of take that one step further, to really see what is it that is being collected and shared and used and is it in the interest of the consumer.

Adam Turner 

So the a triple C has not gotten to the point where it’s actually saying this is what has to be done at the moment, they’re sort of put out a paper and they’re getting input from the industry and from other people about what perhaps shouldn’t be done. Or they’re examples of the kind of dodgy behaviour that they’re, they’re concerned about, because the whole thing sounds a bit dodgy yet, obviously, it’s not illegal because they do it. So where’s the line between what they do that’s dodgy, but we look the other way. And what they do that so dodgy, that we shouldn’t stop them from doing it.

Chandni Gupta 

So one of the things that a lot of these companies play in this in this space have that it’s de identified, non identified pull data, which makes it well because personal information, definition of personal information is so limited, it means that can, weirdly enough playing this de identified space, but there’s so much research now out there, and so much evidence out there to confirm that it’s actually really easy to re identified you identified that and so some of the dodgy behaviours in in some of our previous research into data brokers, we’ve found companies like Quantium, who’s also been noted in the a triple C’s paper was using the identify transaction data from NAB, which was supporting advertising for sports bet. So you can draw the line between what data brokers are doing and how easily it can lead to exploiting someone’s vulnerabilities. All in the name for a profit.

Adam Turner 

Yeah. And so there’s it all there’s also I would assume, like a privacy and security threat as well, I’m thinking of the Equifax hack, which was a while ago, I thought that they were a credit checking agency. But are they a data broker or a credit checking agency or both, and what was so important about that hack?

Chandni Gupta 

So they weren’t, they’re kind of like in the middle line of both. And being a credit, credit, author and credit reporting firm, they were also then having access to so much data. And as a result would, could then data broke it any, any organisation that is in the space of collecting data opens itself up. And collecting all sorts of data from all sorts of places, opens itself up to a data breach, and some form of hack. And we’ve seen that even with really reputable companies here in Australia last year, and earlier this year. So anything where a company has got where his hoards of data, you are going to open yourself up to to some form of data hack, when you’re not actually looking in the space off, am I collecting this for the purpose that it needs to be? Or am I collecting it because it is there to be collected and used. And one of the really tricky things when it comes to data brokering is for the actual end user. So if you were in the case of Equifax because the consumers how are they even even meant to know that the company had their data, and what’s been breached, to some of the other data breaches where it’s like you’re, you’re have a direct relationship with the company that’s been hacked, there is even then there’s not great support for, for the individual. But in these kinds of circumstances, that support is even even less available, because one you don’t know, when it was collected, what was collected, how it was collected, how it’s being used, and what was happening to even then go down the path of any kind of redress.

Adam Turner 

That’s sort of the what’s really questionable, when you look at Equifax. Like I said, I thought that they were primarily a credit reporting agency. But depending on how you look at that some people think that they’re primarily a Data Broker. And it’s almost like they do the credit reporting thing on the side to give them an excuse to collect all that data. Are there other examples like that, where businesses that want to be data brokers could then take on other roles to justify why they’re holding so much data because we also do this,

Chandni Gupta 

it’s highly possible that you’d end up having these kind of mixed business models that are taking place, so the likes of Quantium, or Experian article or Nielsen. They’re all they’re all in this space, where they’re working with really big companies. So when you say these names, you actually don’t, most people wouldn’t know what these companies are, and they would have never heard of them. But then when you look at the names, that they’re working with the likes of big supermarkets, the big four banks, the big tech retailers, then you start to see that how much they are very much part of our everyday lives.

Adam Turner 

One thing I’ve thought of that might be a bit irrelevant what’s happened to me, and I’ve, I always suspected, maybe there was some kind of data broker in the middle. In my house, we’ve noticed that if you get a bit generous and decide to donate money to one cause, suddenly all these other causes start ringing you and sending you letters. And it’s almost as if they get together on swap details on all this person is a bit of a soft touch, they gave us 50 bucks, you should ask them as 50 bucks as well. Or could that be an example of a data broker in the middle of going look, this person is known to donate to causes. So yeah, go and hit him up.

Chandni Gupta 

There’s, that’s very likely that there is something happening in the middle there. Often when we are, for example, giving money to charity, or we’re signing up to a new service or anything like that, we are not looking down the path of the terms and conditions and what what the privacy policy is. And 90% of people don’t and those who, and those who do have often said that when they do they go at go ahead with it, because they there is the only way to get a particular product or service. So in your case, clearly that’s been where by donating and you’re actually doing something great. By donating you’re actually also not only donating your money, you’ve also donated your data. So I’m so sorry for your loss there but it is and I think one of the things that comes up a lot in this startup breaking space and I feel like we’ll hear a lot about it in the coming weeks, is that data broking allows things to be free online. And can I will just say there’s no, there’s never been anything like, there’s been nothing such as a free lunch isn’t no such thing as a free lunch, there is no such thing as a free product or service. If you are not paying through your money, you are most likely paying it through your data, or you are paying for your money. And you’re then also having your data shared as well.

Adam Turner 

So what could they? What kind of changes could they make? Because I like to think of it on a really simple level, there was a time when these people would call you about things. And you can say, Okay, I’ll put myself in the Do Not Call Register. And that will at least for me, that seemed to be fairly effective. But I had to actually ring a few of these. And I now know they were data brokers had to track it back and tell them, like, take my number off your list every now someone would ring me and I’d say where do you get my number from? And I did that a few times. And then they all stopped. So but there’s no equivalent of instead of a do not call this? There’s like a Do Not Track list is there? And if there even if there was I’m not sure how work?

Chandni Gupta 

Well, I mean, you’d be sitting there all day trying to unpack. Yeah, I think that that is the other thing. It is such an opaque space for people and policymakers to navigate. It’s, it’s been it’s a space where if you were to actually say that you don’t want the probably the only way out is to be able to say, Oh, well, I won’t participate. Anything that is collected, I’ll go completely off the grid burn off

Adam Turner 

your fingerprints was in a log cabin.

Chandni Gupta 

Exactly. And what that is going to, what that would actually end up leaving you with is very little to no options. If any, you’re probably just left with doing business with the lemonade stand run by the local kids in your street, there will be nothing because of how much is that. So what can possibly be done, we see that there’s probably there’s three things that really feel could could help make a difference in this space. One is, of course strengthening our privacy protections. And one way to do this, we have looked into how the onus shouldn’t be on the consumer. So just like you said, that you are the one who’s having to call, you know, make the call and say do not, do not add me to this. So take me off this particular list. That shouldn’t be on the consumer, I’ve given how widely the data is out there and how it’s used. We’d really like to see some form of a best interest duty or a duty of care where data is collected, shared and used in a way that is always achieving fair outcomes for the consumer. And we’re seeing it done overseas slowly. It’s you need something where there’s this baseline standard of minimum safety. So that consumed so that Australians don’t have to navigate a complex system and have to suddenly become privacy experts in order to be able to confidently be online. So there’s that there’s also our we really need to look at whether there’s a way to ban unfair practices. And one way to do that is Australia, bringing in a prohibition on unfair trading practices. It’s across a lot of other other jurisdictions. I don’t see why we couldn’t have it in Australia. And it’ll be interesting when it is what we know that the min minister is currently minister for Consumer Affairs is currently looking into what that could look like. But it could have ways where you could actually call out particular data practices that are that could just be banned because they exploit or cause some form of harm to individuals or a community. In the meantime, though, what we really want to see is our regulators using the powers they have to probe these businesses and their practices and hold them to account to our current consumer protections. And so, you know, a triple C, for example, has information gathering powers under the act. And so there is a way to potentially look at probing the framework. So I feel like this is probably their one start off with how they’re doing this. But using those powers to really probe. What is it? What is the framework that data brokers operate in? What does it look like? And then identify whether there are unfair contract terms, whether there’s operations in there that are misleading and deceptive and then work with the likes of the privacy regulator to see if there’s actually breaches within the current privacy principles. So a lot of the concerns that are coming up in this space are very much don’t touch just one part of our law or one part of our protections and so it’s Really, it’s really an opportunity for regulators to be working together and seeing what working together more than they already are doing now to really look at really new creative ways of how they can use the powers they have now to really probe some of these practices

Alex Kidman 

enjoying the show, that’s great. Don’t forget to subscribe which you can do on every podcast platform you’ve ever heard of. Just search for vertical hold, or go to our website, vertical hold dot com dom au. You we’ve got handy button to every single podcast platform.

Adam Turner 

So it feels like it was only last week that we were talking about Telstra doing deals with Elon Musk’s Starlink Oh, hang on. It was last week. So this week Optus has decided that it wants a slice of the action and to find out what that means for Australians. We’re joined once again by find this telco expert, Mariam Gabaji. Mariam, welcome back to the show.

Mariam Gabaji 

Thank you. Thanks for having me again.

Adam Turner 

So, we thought okay, Telstra has done this deal with Starlink. And it’s the first deal that like that that stylings done and obviously like no, we won’t be beaten. So tell us about the Optus deal. What if they announced and How’s it different to what Telstra is doing with them?

Mariam Gabaji 

That Telstra versus Optus competition is continuing? Telstra has partnership with SpaceX, or Starlink is a bit different. It’s focusing on broadband so connecting Australians to a better internet connection according to them. Whereas Optus is focusing on mobile connectivity across Australia instead. So what this means is we’ve always known that Telstra has dominated and regional Australia it’s just got a better mobile network coverage. And Optus is trying to cut a take a slice of the pie as well by partnering with Starlink.

Adam Turner 

So how does this work? Because we’re talking about satellites, but we’re talking about mobile phones, do I need a new phone? Or is the satellite talking to mobile towers.

Mariam Gabaji 

So that’s what’s interesting, you know, you would have is almost a zoom that you’d need a brand new handset. So something that’s probably not out in the market just yet. So not even just one that’s 5g compatible. But so we had to chat with Optus about it. And they said it could, it might work with most 4g compatible handsets. You know, 3g is old technology. So that’s sort of out of the window. And if you look at how T Mobile and SpaceX have partnered, they did a test and it used just a general smartphone, not even one with satellite connectivity. Using T mobile’s mid band spectrum, just send through an SMS, I would assume something similar will we’ll see something similar Optus is going to be running a lot of tests along with SpaceX to see what these compatible devices look like. But it says people want need like any additional, you know, tech.

Adam Turner 

Because with the Telstra deal, I think one of the things that was talking about to extend the regional coverage is they were going to use Starlink satellites as like a backhaul for their mobile towers. So your mobile phone, we would still be talking to the mobile tower, but then we’d be bouncing it up via the satellite to get back to the network. But that’s not what Optus is talking about. Is it you talking about the phone in your hand talking directly to the satellite in the sky?

Mariam Gabaji 

Yeah, that’s correct. So yeah, no backhaul involved in this, your phone will directly talk to the satellite. And by I think late 2024 year, you should be able to send an SMS and late 2025, you’ll see voice and data services be included.

Adam Turner  

And it said clear line of sight of the sky, obviously, because you’re looking at the satellite. So do we think that means maybe no indoor coverage?

Mariam Gabaji 

I would assume so. It’s still early days, they haven’t revealed what the features will look like what the capabilities will be exactly. But it is a it might Yeah, maybe writers zoom that might not work indoors.

Adam Turner 

So as you say this is a big deal for Optus because Telstra and Optus have always sort of competed on coverage and Telstra has always had the upper hand. How much of how much do you think this will change the dynamic between Telstra and Optus? Especially in regional areas when Telstra has always been able to say I EBIT? No one’s as good as us?

Mariam Gabaji 

Yeah, it’d be interesting. It depends on what Telstra announces next you know, we’ve already seen two partnership announcement they’re slightly different. Telstra is trying to you know, work on improving its 5g connections and building that out especially with the 3g closure and trying to build that on those dead spots where 4g signals aren’t as strong. But obviously what Optus is a nonce is a game changer because it it’s going to expand to areas where you know you have no cell phone towers, etc. So it’s just going to be a wait and see game to see what Telstra us next steps are going to be.

Adam Turner 

So yeah, as you say because this is using satellite when you’re using mobile phones, or cell remote relying on mobile phone towers, you’re still going to have places in the middle of nowhere where no one wants to build a mobile phone tower. But in theory, the set because it’s the low Earth orbit satellites that we talked about last week, so there’s, you know, dozens of them whizzing around all the time, you can hit one or the other. So in theory, there’s nowhere in Australia it shouldn’t be able to reach.

Mariam Gabaji 

That’s exactly sure. I think there are a couple of territories or in Western Australia, like some quiet zones where it won’t work. But for majority, it did opposite say almost 100% coverage across Australia.

Adam Turner 

Do you think that that’s the kind of thing that they would charge extra for? Or do you think it would be an automatic sort of roaming thing when you get off the mobile, the Optus mobile network, you just roam onto these satellites?

Mariam Gabaji 

I have two thoughts about this. So either, you know this is going to be an additional added as a perk on their Optus postpaid plan. So which could end up increasing in price? You know, we’ve seen the biggest telcos do that in the last couple of years increase at Planned prices, and it’ll just be an additional perk, or it could be used as an add on. So for instance, if you’re, you know, travelling around these areas where you don’t have cell phone signals, you might get covered if you switch on the add on and it’ll be like, maybe an extra $5 or something.

Adam Turner 

So it’s almost like international roaming, except it’s in intra national roaming.

Mariam Gabaji 

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, it’ll be interesting to see what their you know, prices are like, for example, with Telstra, they’re offering a couple of additional perks such as professional installation, phone services, and being able to access customer support. But obviously, we think it’ll come at an additional cost as compared to going with potentially stalling directly. So it could be slightly similar. For Optus.

Adam Turner 

Is there anyone else? Because I know there’s such a thing as a satellite phone that talks directly to satellite networks like maybe Iridium is a while since I’ve written about that kind of stuff. Is there anyone else? There any other mainstream telcos in Australia that are doing something like this that will talk to satellites? Or for anyone that do you need to go to a dedicated satellite phone service?

Mariam Gabaji 

Yeah, so satellite phones have been what around since the 1990s. About the you’ve got, like your majority, and you’ve got specific satellite phone plans for those type of situations. I think Telstra and Optus are right now the main telcos that are looking into this space, I think it depends on how maybe phone brands work with different partners as well. They might have their own partnership, you have the iPhone 14 that has some sort of satellite connectivity capability. So you can send an SOS signal obviously, that still relies on a call centre, to be able to make that happen. So it just depends on what other partnerships get formed.

Adam Turner 

But I would imagine if that you were someone in Australia, who I don’t know was in the mining sector, or some someone who worked in the middle of nowhere and paid a shitload of money each month for a satellite phone, you’d be very interested in this deal.

Mariam Gabaji 

I think so. I mean, it opens up so many more options. You know, that’s a whole thing where, I guess, the your Telstra and Optus, they’re trying to bridge that digital divide between Metro and regional Australia. And you know, as we all know that, that tech in regional Australia is lacking in terms of mobile network coverage and just broadband. So yeah, this will definitely open up a lot more options.

Adam Turner 

So when we talked about Telstra last week, that obviously had a lot of implications for the NBN because what Telstra was proposing for broadband was basically an alternative to going with NBN Skymaster. Now, what this is doing is not really the equivalent, are they sort of they cutting NBN lunch here, because you couldn’t do this kind of phone service off NBN Skymaster satellites, could

Mariam Gabaji 

you know, your cancer, and it’s obviously just more focused on it’s the broadband area, but it does. I guess we’ve seen with Starlink, you know, it’s given NBN quite a run for its money as volume, advanced loss customers. And that’s probably why I think the NBN trialled their Premium Plus plan and then officially launched as well to be able to give those fastest speeds because, you know, about 25 Mbps isn’t really a lot or having so much metered data, like your general online activities. So yeah, it’s definitely I think it’ll be interesting to see what the NBN Co does next, as it tries to keep up pace.

Adam Turner 

The other thing I was imagining is that if you’re Optus, you’re probably not going to want to share this with your nvns you’re on Coles and Woolworths and all those kind of resellers. Is it fair to assume that they’re actually with Telstra and Optus talking to to the likes of styling that your MV and O’s kind of start to get a bit left out here?

Mariam Gabaji 

So, again, I think We can base this all on it theory. But you know what Optus and the NBN knows that are run on its network, they’ve been able to get full access to its 4g network and then obviously 5g network as well. We’ve also seen the likes of a mason introduce 5g on its regular plans as well. Optus might try to differentiate itself by offering this feature. And whereas everyone else has sort of similar features to Optus in terms of like 4g and 5g network coverage.

Adam Turner 

So a few years ago, we were talking a lot about the fact that Telstra and TPG wanted to form a regional partnership. And I think it was to do with sharing towers sharing spectrum, basically teaming up to get better overall coverage but reduced competition, which is why in the end, they wouldn’t let them do it. Out. The Announcements we’re seeing from the likes of Telstra and Optus in the last couple of weeks, is that part of the ongoing fallout of the fact that that partnership didn’t happen.

Mariam Gabaji 

Yeah, so Optus must have had this in the back anyway, you know, it’s been opposed to the TPG Telstra partnership. But given this announcement, I think it just wanted to sort of put a stamp on, you know, sort of like that regional space as well. Whereas, if it had been with the TPG and Telstra partnership, this would have been taken, not a backseat, because it’s a completely different sort of technology. But the customer base would might not have been as large for instance. So yeah, I think with Telstra and TPG not having to deal or maybe open up competition, but does it benefit regional Australia? I think it’s to be decided on how bought their new partnership. So it’s stalling out.

Adam Turner 

So TPG starting to look like the one out here.

Mariam Gabaji 

Yeah, you know, it’s always been focused on metro areas. And obviously, you want to expand to that. But given what’s happening in the space right now, it’s it feels like it’s going to be Telstra and Optus right at the front. And that trend is probably going to continue.

Adam Turner 

Well, it’s interesting to see that Telstra and Optus have taken their their fight literally to a new level. And we’ll see how it plays out over the next couple of years. Thanks for making the time for us.

Mariam Gabaji 

No, thank you. Oh, it’s interesting to see what’s happening in the tech space, and especially with satellite technology sort of on the forefront of everybody’s minds. Yeah, it’ll be an interesting couple of years ahead.

Adam Turner 

And before we lose the satellite, Link, I’m gonna hit you with a vertical hold three questions of doom. Where can people find your work online? Where can they find you on social media? And the big contentious question? If I made you Australia’s telco on President day for the day, what would be your decree?

Mariam Gabaji 

So for the first question, you can find my work on find a.com.au. And yeah, you can look me up there, or my content over there. You can also find me on Twitter, LinkedIn, those are my main two go twos, and, oh, three. Really, really affordable, mobile. Mobile plans for everybody.

Adam Turner 

I think you’ll make a lot of friends with that’s a great. Thanks for

Mariam Gabaji 

your time. All right, thank you so much.

Adam Turner 

Well, that just about wraps it up for this week’s episode of vertical hold. Thanks for Chandni for joining us on the show this week.

Chandni Gupta

Thank you so much for having me. It’s been great to be back.

Adam Turner 

And as usual, I’m gonna hit you up with the vertical hold three questions of doom. Alex isn’t here. So it falls on me? Where can people find your work online? Where can they find you on social media? And if we declared you the consumer watchdog? l president a for the day? What would be your decree?

Chandni Gupta 

Our great questions? Well, you can find my work on the Consumer Policy Research Centre’s website that’s cprc.org.au. You can find me on LinkedIn, if you just said Chandni Gupta, and on Twitter at underscore underscore Chandni Gupta, because there’s quite a few out there, apparently. And in terms of yes, if I was thought, well, oh, my goodness, if I was certainly one of the things I’d really like to be doing is using more of my information gathering powers, like I said, to really probe the system and really see what is what is it that the data breakers such as these and what are the other data practices that are happening really kind of uncover what is currently quite opaque? And I’d be advocating hard and strong which I think a triple C is at the moment about, on on, on bringing in a ban on unfair trading practices and getting getting the government to put together options and put forward options that are really going to make a difference to all Australians. So carry a big stick. Yeah, it’s pretty

Adam Turner 

and you can catch on us at on Twitter at vertical hold AU or the vertical hold Facebook page or you can head over to verticalhold.com.au that are you and thanks for dropping by and don’t be afraid to drop us a line and let us know your thoughts on what we talked about this week Vertical Hold is brought to you by Uniden Australia

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