ABC e-X-its Twitter, Women’s World Cup kicks streaming goals, Aussie gamers play hard: Vertical Hold Ep 441

Adam Turner 

what I think’s interesting is that Musk reportedly has neck problems and doesn’t know if you’ll have to delay the fight. What I think he’s going to do is turn up on the day and then pull out Gregor the mountain as his champion and just get him to absolutely pulverise Zuck,

Alex Kidman 

but cyborg Zuck, it doesn’t matter to like fight basically.

Adam Turner 

could get ugly, cyber Zuch vs cyber truck all night. So we’re gonna be talking about social media shortly given that the ABC This Week has declared that Elon Musk’s Twitter sorry ex is its ex because it’s dumped pretty much all of its accounts on the platforms. But first, Alex caught up with Kotaku Australia’s David Smith, to talk about new research into the way that Australians play video games. And later, I’ll be chatting with TV blackbox’s, Steve Molk, about the Matilda’s success, the Women’s World Cup and what that possibly means for the future of streaming sports rights.

Alex Kidman 

So, personally, I’m old enough to remember a time where if you mentioned computer games, you were probably referencing a 1979, MISEX hit, and not so much the fine art of video games. kids ask your parents about that one. But we’ve come a long, long way since then. And the recent Australia plays report put out by the IGA has shed a lot of light on when Australians game how many of us get all sorts of really kind of fascinating stats. I’m joined by catappa Australia’s David Smith in the studio once more, David, welcome back to the show.

David Smith 

Hello, mate. I feel like we only just saw each other not that long ago. Well, look,

Alex Kidman 

you’re more than welcome to join us in the vertical hold studios whenever you feel like it.

David Smith 

Thank you, man. I appreciate it. It’s good to see you.

Alex Kidman 

And Well, speaking of join, one of the one of the big headlines stats for this particular report was that 81% of all Australians play video games. Yes. Basically the nation, isn’t it?

David Smith 

That’s huge, isn’t it? Yeah. So IGA has put out their Australia plays report which they run every two years to sort of track how Australia’s relationship with video games is evolving. 81% of all Aussies play video games that’s up from 67% Two years ago, what a jump. That’s huge. That is absolutely massive. And yeah, that is such a significant percentage of the population that what we’re basically waiting out at that point is like, the very old and the very, very young, everyone, otherwise inclusive of about four or five years old, all the way up to probably about 90 or so is playing games on one device or another whether that’s on a console, an iPad, an iPhone, and it’s mostly it seems, the mobile devices, the phones, the iPads,

Alex Kidman 

actually, I mean, I dug a little deeper into that they even have some like one to four year olds, which they’ve included playing games, although I was a little bit depressed to notice that they cap out at 94 years old in terms of older Australians. Does this mean when I hit 90 For like, I’m gonna have to stop playing strip that’s it,

David Smith 

man. We gotta hang it out. We gotta hang the controller up at that point.

Alex Kidman 

I don’t like this law. I don’t like I’m sure at 94 I’m not gonna throw a dragon punch quite the same way. At least be able to have a go.

David Smith 

No, we’re gonna be playing through fighter in the retirement home. We’ve known that for a long time.

Alex Kidman 

There’s also I mean quite a pleasing shift in gender balance, because it’s often seen as kind of this male match show. Only guys play video games thing, but 48% of gamers are female and, and 1% are intersex. Like there’s, there’s a decent little bounce that there is

David Smith 

it’s up from 46%, two years ago. So a bit of a jump. But what has been really, really interesting about that breakdown, and I was at an event with Igea. Just yesterday, talking through this, this study with Professor Jeffrey brand, who came from Bond University, to talk us through it. What was really interesting about the breakdown in the report regarding the 48% of women gamers, was the breakdown of women gamers, particularly young and particularly old. Girls, in particular, I’m making up a bigger and bigger percentage of the female player base. They’re picking up iPads, they’re picking up iPhones. And because there’s way more games that are aimed at girls and the things that girls are interested in on those devices, that number is growing rapidly. And the same can be said, for older women. And I’m talking particularly like 55, to 75 and 75. And above 75. And above is making up a significant percentage as well, well, and truly over the boys. They leave in the mentor dead in that category, because they’re all absolutely destroying as a candy crush. And there was like there was some really great feedback in the report. You can read it on the IG a website, they’ve got it up, everybody can can check it out and have a read a feedback from an older an older woman who sort of felt like she might not have what it takes. In online games in particular, I imagine she’s playing on her phone. thought she might not have what it takes against younger players but was holding her own was not just holding your own was beating much younger players in that made her feel really good.

Alex Kidman 

Just always ready out there somewhere who’s amazing at Call of Duty who’s just like headshotting people from miles away,

David Smith 

there has to be and I want to meet her I want to interview that woman. Oh my god.

Alex Kidman 

Actually, I’m talking about women playing and play time. They recommend an average of 90 minutes game time per day, and I love games. I wish I had 90 minutes a day to dedicate to them, though.

David Smith 

Me too. Me too. I run a video game website. I wish I had gotten it done for video games. No, that’s yeah, 90 minutes. And that is it’s important. It’s important time spent I would like and I know that Professor bread said the same thing, I would consider that that time for play to be very important to be useful. The time made for play helps improve cognitive responses. It’s it’s important. Not only that, I mean, it obviously helps with things like depression and anxiety, it gives us somewhere to go. After a stressful day. Sometimes you just want to get into call duty zombies and blows and blows away for a couple of hours. It’ll make you feel better. It does. It can be a bit deeper than that. But that’s it doesn’t have to be that’s the thrust.

Alex Kidman 

I mean, I did highlight mental health as one of the key reasons why people do game massive. My inner cynic kind of raised its head with some of the stats they had, with them initially saying that 94% of households have a device for playing games. And yes, I’ve got it. I’ve got to say at first I thought well, yeah, of course they do. Because smartphones are ubiquitous. And every smartphone is technically a game playing device. But I will take my cynical hat off for this because in fact, their stats suggested that those numbers were actually led by consoles that 81% And then smartphones at 70%.

David Smith 

Yeah, there was there was a breakdown that we were looking at. There’s two sort of separate sides to that. And in one aspect, you are correct. There are an awful lot of mobile devices, phones and tablets and things like that out there. And they do make up a substantial number of devices in the home as the gaming consoles were leading the way for sure. Yeah, it’s an interesting breakdown, isn’t it? Like, you can go deeper into it. You can look deeper into it. However, I mean, as far as the study is concerned, the writing is fairly on the wall consoles still very much leading the way at least in Australia, though. The mobiles are not far behind. It’s it’s catching up pretty quick.

Alex Kidman 

Well, I mean, it actually left me thinking that they said 70% smartphones, it actually made me think there’s got to be and I know there are some people who don’t have a smartphone, but it is an astonishingly small percentage. There’s got to be like 20 nearly 30% of people who just don’t realise that their smartphones can play games. Yeah,

David Smith 

yeah, totally, totally or, or just aren’t interested in playing games on those phones for whatever reason. But I know like, you know, there’s people who are gonna have like work phones and things like that. Those devices will be counted in the study, but they may not be playing games on them. You know what I mean? Yeah, there’s a lot of there’s a lot of Yeah, particularly interesting stats. One that really jumped out at me was a Australians play video games with others. 75% of Australians play video games with others. Online is a massive component to this social aspect is a massive component. So when people are wondering why major publishers are leaning so heavily on multiplayer games in 2023? I mean, there’s your paper one. Yeah, it’s what the people want. Yeah,

Alex Kidman 

it’s funny. We were talking about this on the show last week, that NBN Co was talking about downloading Call of Duty patches as a speed benchmark. Yeah. I mean, that’s a bit of a sign of yeah, this is what people actually do. One of the stats that jumped out at me that people seemingly don’t do very much is VR, it’s still a tiny percentage of households about 5%. Yeah, that one,

David Smith 

that one didn’t surprise me at all. It is it is still my my PSVR two has been sitting on the shelf, since I got it. Like, I have it. But I don’t really use it, they’ve not really given me anything to do with it just yet. And I can see that happening. With a lot of people who are into VR, it’s still very much an edge case, in my view, the support base, the game base just isn’t really there yet. And so to see such a small percentage attached to it did not surprise me in the slightest. It just makes

Alex Kidman 

me wonder whether or not the window is really closing on VR going mainstream, you’ll always have a few people. And there are some game situations for which it is utterly amazing. Completely. You will, this idea that our VR will be the next mainstream gaming tech i i feel like that window might have closed or certainly it’s looking like it’s slamming shut pretty quick.

David Smith 

It feels like if it was going to happen, it would have happened by now, doesn’t it? Yeah. I don’t know. 5%. I’m not surprised.

Alex Kidman 

Now, I know you’re a proud Melburnian. And one of the stats quoted in the report is going to be contentious from anyone from Melbourne. This is the idea that video games are more popular than the AFL now, I should say I have no skin in this game. Because I’m not a sports guy at all, as any regular listener will know. But I think they were saying that 56% of Australians tuned in for the AFL Grand Finals, as opposed to 81% of people who play video games. So should we should we now be paying a lot more attention to video games? Or is this just you know, statistics for the sake of it?

David Smith 

I mean, it feels like I mean, then again, it might depend on how your team’s doing. I know. I know that like watching ESPN in the back half of this season has certainly made me turn it off and play more video games. It’s it’s an interesting stat, isn’t it? Like? Yeah, like such a huge amount of people already watched the football but were overtaken I’d be interested to know how many people are just sort of tuning out they’ve got they’ve got they’ve got the game on. But they’re on their phone, and they’re playing something, you know what I mean? Like, give me the numbers on that. I’m sure that’s gonna be very hard to squeeze into a study. Maybe in another two years, we’ll see that cover.

Alex Kidman 

I suppose we should point out actually the IGA the the interactive games and entertainment association that put this report out, they’re not exactly the disinterested party. This isn’t a derived government report. They’ve got skin in the game. What is it the IGA does for those who are not aware.

David Smith 

So the IGA is, and I will use their own nomenclature is the peak industry association representing the voice of Australia and New Zealand companies in the computer and video games industry, that’s about as good as a description as you could possibly hope for. They are the people who are going to government talking about issues affecting the games industry in Australia, a lot of the time, they’re the boots on the ground, they’re the people in the room who are talking to government specifically about the stuff that needs to happen to push the Australian game space forward. They are the people who know who to speak to in government to get stuff done. And a lot of the time, they’re the last line of defence when government wants to make changes to the industry that might affect us adversely. They’re the ones who have to go in and argue on the local industries behalf. They have done very, very well for us in the past. And that’s part of why these reports continue to come through because of benefits idea as well, to keep taking these reports back to government and say, look at how well we’re doing, like look at where we are on the global stage. Look at the insane number of Australians that are playing video games now. And we can be making these things here at home. there’s money to be made here. There’s money to be made abroad. We should be investing in this mall. Yeah, they are. They are the ones who are doing quite a bit of that work. They’re certainly not by no means are they the only ones but they are one of the larger groups that are doing that work.

Alex Kidman 

Excellent. Well, hopefully, they will continue to do that for a very, very long time. Agreed. Thanks for your time this week, David. Now we’ve mixed things up a bit in terms of the three questions of doom, they’re gone. You’ve now got the opportunity to just to promote any piece of work that you’ve done or anywhere that you are working any social media that you might still be on. And because we’re trying to give some good practical advice to our listeners. What’s one game any game that our listeners should be playing this weekend?

David Smith 

Oh my goodness. So yeah, you can find me on kotaku.com.au That’s video game website comm check us out. We’re on all sorts of Different platforms are on Tik Tok or on Insta comic find us. What bit of work would we like to promote? We just got our straight Gods review up just this morning. That’s a brand new Australian game. It is a musical RPG, a role playing game. Very, very cool. Very, very different. I’m sure it’s gonna be divisive amongst certain players. I found it to be myself. I found it very, very interesting, though. Perhaps musically, not necessarily completely my cup of tea. It might be yours. I recommend checking it out because I think it’s very cool. And very different. I really like what they’re doing over there. Check my review out on the website. That’s up now. Advice. Will What should people be playing this weekend the game that I have been playing lately. And you I know you love it one I make an old school reference. I’ve been playing boulders gate three. This is the latest in a long long run series from the very very late 90s boulders gate which is a Dungeons and Dragons. Video game. This is the third one. It’s made by a group called Larian Studios. They made a game a couple of years ago called Divinity Original Sin two. These are very layered dance. Not necessarily technical, but very deep role playing games. They simulate the pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons experience in three dimensions beautifully. I cannot get enough of it. I think everybody should be playing this right now. I think it’s one of the games of the year.

Alex Kidman 

I think I’ve just worked out where your 90 minutes of gaming per day are going.

David Smith 

Oh yeah, right now. That’s what straight into bottles get 300%

Alex Kidman 

or so well, I will let you get back to it. Thanks so much for your time. Thank you, mate. Enjoying the show? That’s great. Don’t forget to subscribe, which you can do on every podcast platform you’ve ever heard of just search for vertical hold, or go to our website verticalhold.com.au. You were handy button to every single podcast platform.

Adam Turner 

So Alex, as we talked about earlier, the ABC has decided it wants to break up with Twitter. Sorry, x. What’s the story here?

Alex Kidman 

Yeah, it’s making Twitter its ex basically at the puns right themselves. And I’m not ashamed to say I’m going to dive right into all of those puns as often as I can. But in this case, the ABC, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, not the American mob for any of our international business has decided that it’s going to shut down nearly all of its accounts and it had a lot of accounts, the only accounts that are going to remain will be at ABC News at ABC sport at ABC, Australia, which is the master account at ABC, Chinese the last of which apparently, because it’s a really serious, major way that the ABC communicates with its Chinese language audience. So it’s a little bit different there. But the reason they’re citing are the toxic interactions that have become increasingly prevalent on Twitter. So Twitter being a cesspool, Adam, I mean, are we surprised in any way? Well, not

Adam Turner 

really. But I think they’ve got a fair point if you’re just want to look at it purely from a health and safety issue, because Musk is stripped away so much in terms of moderation and basically just given the Nazis in the height as a free run, that having someone and telling them it’s your job, you’ve got to sit there and wade through this all day is a health and safety issue. And I can see why they’d want to protect their people from that.

Alex Kidman 

Yeah, I mean, not unsurprisingly, I suppose Elon Musk has weighed in on this and accused them of censorship. And that this isn’t what Australia wants. Because Elon Musk because knows exactly what Australia wants.

Adam Turner 

He doesn’t apparently know what censorship is an idiot. They really is. As we’ve said before, he believes in absolute free speech, unless he disagrees with what’s being said. And you would think that free speech includes the right not to speak on some platforms. But apparently, he’s in his brain. Everything works differently.

Alex Kidman 

Yeah, there’s a I think it’s an XKCD cartoon that that deals this nicely, that kind of points out that, you know, often these things are not in fact, censorship. It’s just that people don’t actually want to listen to what you’ve got to say. And that’s that, I think is is largely the story here. And I think you’re right, I think Twitter has, I mean, I suppose the argument could be put Twitter’s not been great for this stuff for a long, long time. And there’s been a lot of abuse on the platform, even back when they actually did employ people to do content moderation, but it’s it’s got markedly worse in terms of the quality interactions. One thing I did know, was that actually they went a little bit further than just saying, we’re leaving because it’s awful here. They also said that they were leaving because their audience increasingly wasn’t there, that their audience was actually much more on Facebook and Tik Tok and other social media platforms. Not Twitter.

Adam Turner 

While I guess that sort of lines up with the general flow of people away from Twitter who are unhappy with the cesspool that it’s become, I think what will be really interesting, like those ones are the usual suspects, you’d expect them to go there. But whether it comes to a point where they say, okay, blue sky or threads or Macedon, whatever, whether they think one of them rises up to the point where it’s actually worthy of their attention, but we’re still sort of waiting to see how that all plays out.

Alex Kidman 

Yeah, I mean, interestingly, they’re just in terms of national broadcasters, the BBC just set up its own Mastodon instance. So there’s clearly some interest there. They will. And I find this this thing of audiences interesting as well, because obviously, you know, as a podcast, we promote at the end of every show that vertical hold is on Twitter. But increasingly looking at the stats around that, we’re not seeing much looking at the stuff that I do myself through YouTube, please like and subscribe. And, and Alex reviews tech. I put stuff up on Twitter. And by far, I technically have the largest audience at the largest number of subscribers on that platform compared to a threads or a mastodon, or a blue sky. Only just joined. But I don’t see it in terms of actual audience interaction. I mean, feedback sometimes. But actual traffic, it’s almost negligible. Musk has really kind of shot the horse there, I think.

Adam Turner 

Yeah. I mean, we’re promoting yourself on social media or promoting work on social media has always been a little bit spray and pray, get out there. And every platform, you can, but I know what you mean that the value that Twitter delivers, in terms of not just the volume of the interactions, but the quality of interactions is really dropped. And if you were looking today about where would I focus my efforts to build up an audience for my new whatever it is, Twitter would not be at the top of your list?

Alex Kidman 

Yeah. And look, I can think of a time where and you’re right spray and pray was always sort of part of it. But I can think of a time where I would throw something up on Twitter. And it I would see immediate traffic. And because of the way this stuff gets trapped a lot, I could see Yeah, look, all this stuff is coming from Twitter. And it just does not happen any more.

Adam Turner 

I think they’ve also changed the way the algorithm works, and maybe to do with who doesn’t doesn’t have a blue tick as well. But it’s actually much harder to get your stuff seen on Twitter, even if you put it up there doesn’t mean anybody’s going to see it. And I’ve changed notice a real change in the last maybe six or 12 months with the kind of interactions I get up when I put things up. And now that you see the the interface shows you how many people have actually seen it, how much variation there is, in those numbers and how some things put up a scene by you know, a few dozen people when you’ve maybe got, you know, eight 9000 followers on Twitter, whatever it is. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, it’s actually much the algorithm is making it much harder to break through the noise. And I don’t know whether or not having a blue tick would be would make a difference. It’s interesting, something we haven’t touched on is that they’re actually letting you hide the blue tick. If you realise that you need a blue tick, but you’re so ashamed of it that you don’t want anyone to know. Now you can give them the money and not let anybody know, that’s very telling, because I’m having

Alex Kidman 

my bed beta Elon Musk moment, you’re not wrong, this is a thing that they’re doing. Except that people have worked out that there are instances where you blue tick still gonna show pretty awful. That I think you would think that’s a very simple thing. But apparently not, because I’m

Adam Turner 

not going to be happy once I lose access to TweetDeck. And if they said to me, you can pay for access to Tweet Deck, but not a blue tick, I would probably give them the money for that. But to have to get the blue tick, just use TweetDeck I want a different colour tick that says I’ve got the blue tick, but not by choice. Don’t throw me in with that

Alex Kidman 

other light. See, I’ve got to be honest. And I think I’ve said this on the show before actually, my interactions on Twitter the time I spend on Twitter has come crashing Lee down like seriously seriously down I’m if you want to see me kind of socially, I’m much more on Mastodon threads blue sky, then Twitter, I kind of duck in there because Oh yeah, right. I’ve just suddenly the minds just been published, right? I’ll promote it. I mean, I’m out. Maybe I’d like converse with one or two other people while I’m while I’m there. But it’s like minutes in a week where it used to command my social media presence. Getting back to the ABC for a second. They had loads and loads and loads of little regional accounts for lots of the radio stations. And I remember I was used to tag them in when I was doing radio spots, and they’re all gone. But one of the other things that they are getting rid of and this I I’m not so comfortable with. They’re getting rid of the ABC emergency account, and this was the one that they would use to do things like bushfire and disaster alerts, and things like that. I’m a little bit more concerned about that. no longer been there.

Adam Turner 

I’m actually more concerned that people would be relying on things like Twitter for that kind of information. Really, that’s what ABC Radio is for, especially, you know, the, the am stuff, the stuff that reaches out where nothing else reaches. If you’re worried about bushfires in your area today, get the hell off Twitter and turn on the radio.

Alex Kidman 

Look, you’re not wrong. I love me some ABC Radio, big wave shout out to Dr. Nick there. But I love me some ABC radio does wonderful, wonderful work in times of emergency. But I just think it’s you and you’re not entirely wrong. You shouldn’t be relying on it. But I think for those kinds of communications, more is more. Yes, no harm in having it there. And if a person sees an alert through that service, they’re still being advised. Where perhaps they don’t I mean, how many smartphones do you have that have an am radio built in Adam?

Adam Turner 

Oh, I’ve probably got a Nokia one in a box. I remember when you used to have FM radios believe it was crazy. But these days,

Alex Kidman 

it’s not the device you have on you. It’s maybe the thing that’s in that car, I suppose. But having those additional channels for those absolutely vital kind of communications. That concerns me a little bit more. But I suppose you do end up running down that slippery slope of, well, if they’re there, then why isn’t there an ABC emergency on every social media network on the planet because somebody might see it.

Adam Turner 

So everyone knows how much Alex Gibbon knows about sport, which is, which is why we’ve banished him temporarily from the studios. He had his fun you got to talk to Kotaku about games. Now I’m talking to the amazing Steve Mulk from TV blackbox about sports diadem. So it’s one of those weeks where too much sport is barely enough.

Steve Molk 

And then some I mean, we’re deep in AFL and NRL getting to the back end of the season almost getting to the quarters in the semis and those sorts of things. We’ve got the ashes have just finished up. But of course, the thing that’s on the tippy tops of everybody’s list is the Women’s World Cup. And, frankly, just how well the Matilda’s are doing.

Adam Turner 

Well, in some ways, it’s not a surprise, because they’ve always done fairly well. They’ve always made it out of the they’ve been pretty good at making it out of the group stage until the till the next round. But I think what’s really interesting now is that it’s a streaming thing. And when all the streaming rights a deal, made, I’m not sure whether the Women’s World Cup was taken as seriously now, there were a lot of very unhappy women’s football fans in Australia, wouldn’t it?

Steve Molk 

Yeah. And not unreasonably. So when the news was announced back in 2001. I think it was that Optus secured the deal as the major broadcast partner for the with FIFA Women’s World Cup that we and New Zealand have been hosting. And we all remember how well it went last time. They were the broadcaster of the world, the Men’s World Cup games in Australia. Maybe it was a couple of games a couple of seasons series ago. But yeah, they have left a salty taste in the mouth of fans. And so to hear that that was the thing and that you have to subscribe to Optus to watch all of the games did not go down. Well, the interesting thing was now allegedly, from what I understand the reporting was that Optus signed the deal for 8 million bucks to have the full broadcast rights for the Women’s World Cup games for the entire series. And then seven came sniffing around and went well. We’ll pick up you know, the finals rounds and the Matildas games which they didn’t have to do, but allegedly picked them up for a song like less than 5 million bucks. So Optus are happy because they get you know about a half of their money back straightaway. And seven are happy because they get a bit of sport and they would now be absolutely overjoyed because a the Matilda’s are going well, and we love a winner Adam. But also because they paid dirt money for well now the biggest show in 2023.

Adam Turner 

But at some point, you’re saying it’s quite possible that we could have ended up with knowing that no one being able to watch the material was or anyone else play unless you pay for the sport.

Steve Molk 

That’s correct. In fact, when it was first signed, that was the only way that you were going to do it. And it was just whether seven we’re on the hunt for a little bit of point of difference, because there’s no way when they signed the deal they knew that the Matildas would do as well as they have and certainly have garnered as much attention as they have. I think as much as anything. It is a two fold deal. One we love our Australian teams and we will support them just absolutely to the end of the earth while they’re winning. And the other thing is that it’s at a time slot that absolutely suits primetime TV here in Australia

Adam Turner 

and their hearts that’s the back this tell me about the writings that the material was the last materials game card.

Steve Molk 

Well yeah, let’s let’s get to that. So that game against Denmark that have pushed them through to the game that will be you know, recording times Sweet Saturday afternoon five o’clock from Brisbane rectangular Stadium. The one on Monday night from Sydney’s big stadium 2.29 4 million viewers on a Monday night, just for the five capital cities. So the main oz tam ratings, nearly 2.3 million viewers that is bigger than any state of origin match. And I would hazard to say will probably remain to be bigger than any of the AFL or NRL grand finals that we’ll see next month.

Adam Turner 

So that really shuts down people who save and nobody cares about women’s sport.

Steve Molk 

What doesn’t it doesn’t add up like yes, on one hand with a tacit viewing. Look at this. Look at all of the people watching the game. Of course, people will watch women’s sport particularly when it’s a world class women’s sport. And I don’t want to be that guy. When people would always watch world class women’s sport because there’s an interest in it. However, the concern has always been our but it doesn’t rate as well or our but you know, people were advertisers won’t get involved now. Some pundits have been making that claimer and particularly the AFL W and the women’s NRL games. And to a degree that is the case it doesn’t pull the audience of the men’s game though in effort, in essence, that’s parochialism. And also domestic games. Like we can’t really compare a domestic code against the biggest game in the world. And, as I said before, played at times that absolutely sit our lifestyle 830 At night, 730 at night, five o’clock in the afternoon, of course, we’re going to tune in and watch the Matilda’s play, especially when it’s broadcast on free to air television because channel seven picked it up for a song made I can promise you that 5 million bucks that they paid for that they got that money back in the first two games for the Matilda’s they broadcast. No question,

Adam Turner 

Matt, how does this stack up against the the Men’s World Cup because again, that’s something that’s, I think, on auto sport, but they have to deal with SPS. Yes. But us as the N free to our viewers get a much better deal there than they do from the Women’s World Cup.

Steve Molk 

Yeah, and part of that is because of the anti syphoning list. So not as it stands right now. And I want to acknowledge that the review that was supposed to happen and get our results back early this year, they basically weren’t we’ll keep looking at it. So there will be changes to the deciphering list. It will not surprise me if in the recommendations for the next one that things like the Women’s World Cup, make it on there. Because they are on there at the moment. Now it’s not not so there was that’s what I mean, there was no need for Optus to sell or for seven or anyone to buy the Women’s World Cup games, because it just could have stayed on up to us because it’s not legislated to say it has to whereas for the Men’s World Cup games, it has to the the other games have to be free to weigh

Adam Turner 

in some ways this this World Cup and the materials is actually perfect timing now that they’re talking about redrawing that anti syphoning rules. Now, if this does not happen until after they’ve redrawn the rules, it’s quite possible they could have ignored women’s sport again.

Steve Molk 

Absolutely. And dare I say it if this tournament was being hosted in the northern hemisphere, in the geographically opposite position to us where the games would be at, you know, stupid o’clock in the morning, you would get diehard diehard fans tuning in. But you wouldn’t see 2.3 million viewers tuning in to see us defeat Denmark. Now had we in the same situation had that tournament been over there somewhere else? Europe, England, and we were doing this well. Oh, we would tune in. I don’t think we get 2.3 million viewers cheering it.

Adam Turner 

So in the longer term, what do you how do you reckon this could shape future streaming deals? Now that they realise that they can’t just look at women’s sport as an afterthought? There’s a market there there’s interest in them with what’s happening now it would look even worse the optics of ignoring women. Now going forward is even worse.

Steve Molk 

While particularly while there’s a lady called Sam Kerr and the Matilda’s right. And there’s an I don’t want to say that the Australian women’s football team that the Matildas is bigger than Samco. We have seen that in the fact that they’ve got through these last three games and done as well as they have. And Sam has been sitting on the bench for most of it. She’s a key player and will play a huge role in it. Look, I think Adam Well, I would normally say it will add a zero to the price. It’s not going to go from 8 million to 80 million. I think what we will see as an increase in interest, and I would then expect a far more hotly contested, particularly while that while the Matilda’s are doing as well as they are a far more hotly contested bidding war to the point where the next time it happens up the sport won’t get it by default, which was almost the situation. It would be probably a free to a network or even conglomeration in partnership with a Foxtel that would say, you want to watch all of the games you sign up with us or you come over here to us.

Adam Turner 

Yeah. So by the time the next Women’s World Cup, if not, even the next Men’s World Cup comes along, we will probably see this new anti syphoning list

Steve Molk 

a guaranteed we’re due to get a new response on that in the next two years. I think it was

Adam Turner 

referring sign up for a while but

Steve Molk 

yeah, well that’s it. I mean, I delivered a response it says we’re gonna keep looking at it. Toothless idiots. I think the men’s the men’s games will never fall off because that’s the thing. I think the radical inclusion of female games, particularly female international games, like the Women’s World Cup, will absolutely land on the anti surfing list if it continues, because that’s actually the real issue. I think that it might actually not continue or be severely cut

Adam Turner 

down and if the syphoning list continues at all, yes,

Steve Molk 

it either won’t exist or it will be severely cut down. Now, the challenge around this of course, is that our free to end networks are absolutely pushing to say there should be more things on the any syphoning list we need free go at all of these kinds of sports things. For all of these reasons. When they are successful, they write their absolute pants off, and that allows them to make a butt tonne of money. The difficulty is, if you’re a fan of most of any of the sports that are on the ad syphoning list, you’re probably subscribing to a place like Foxtel or kayo. To watch it anyway because you feel their coverage is far superior or you get to see every game of that tournament or that series that just isn’t delivered on free to air television because the anti syphoning list doesn’t say they have to. Could

Adam Turner 

you see him just doing away with it altogether? Do you think people Australians would tolerate that?

Steve Molk 

Now they’d be a massive stink about it for sure. Again, that said anyone that’s it’s only casual viewers that really the anti syphoning list protects because anyone that loves their AFL is already a Foxtel. Okay, a subscriber already. Anybody loves in fact, anyone that loves most of their sports, outside AFL or NRL has found a way to watch it. And most of that includes a subscription service. And particularly if you’re a Rambo football fan, there are probably three subscriptions. They’re

Adam Turner 

the ones that are the hardest numbers, aren’t they, they’re the ones who have to sign up for if they want to watch all of the different. codes is the word but all the different variations. They’re up from a lot more money and a lot more different streaming services, then I was

Steve Molk 

bloody many of them. Like I will acknowledge as a casual roundball football viewer, I don’t understand it. As a TV critic, I look at it and go, that’s just ludicrous money, like, I get why there are all of the different things but that I have to go to three different places to watch all of the games is outrageous. But in a country like Australia, there is not the audience that warrants putting it all in one place because it costs you too much money to get the broadcast rights.

Adam Turner 

Alright, well, thank you for dropping by and give us an update on that and give me a chance to talk about sport and get away from Alex.

Steve Molk 

Until this

Adam Turner 

is, so if people want to find you, where can they catch you in your work.

Steve Molk 

The TV black box, or Condrieu is where we write things. And I certainly talk about ratings almost every day TV black box podcast, which is out Tuesdays ish. Almost every week. Well, it’s tough life, then you can hear about what we think about the TV industry. And absolutely, I can guarantee you that we have already talked about and we’ll continue to talk about the success of the Matildas and what that looks like from a ratings perspective because seven are laughing all the way to the bank.

Adam Turner 

And the big question, the the $64 million question. I’m not for the Matilda’s What should people be watching this weekend?

Steve Molk 

Oh gosh Prime Video The last flowers of Alice heart is just incredible Australian drama for mine. The Australian drama of the year the fourth of seven episodes will launch this weekend. Caution if you have sensitivity towards domestic and family violence issues you might want to watch it with a friend or what she did five minute segments because it’s reasonably full on Thank God you’re here is back on Channel 10 That’s absolutely throwing your eyes at 10 Play and catching up on that and enjoying it really enjoying that that’s heaps of fun. And if you’re after a new challenge then I would say to you that What We Do In The Shadows is back for season five on your binge and your fox showcase. Do it if you haven’t seen Colin from accounts on binge watch that too because that’s now three logins deep and a second season announced that sounds like a pretty full weekend night and and some ramble football in the go.

Adam Turner 

Alright, good to catch up with you. She’s mad

Alex Kidman 

Well that just about wraps up this week’s episode of vertical hold thanks to our guests for joining us this week. And thanks for listening in as always, if you’ve got feedback on the show you can catch us across social media we are still at vertical hold au on Twitter sorry on X keep forgetting or maybe that’s deliberate. Let me know. We’ll be we’re also on the vertical Facebook page on Instagram at vertical hold.com.au and you can reach out to either of us individually as well.

Adam Turner 

Thanks everyone for dropping by and don’t forget to drop us a line and let us know what you think of the show. Vertical hold is proudly brought to you by Uniden Australia

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